More LotR babblesquee
Aug. 28th, 2010 09:44 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
elabyYou know, I just love it when people comment on one of my DeviantArt pictures of Holmes and Watson and instead of, you know, mentioning the art, all they do is try to get confirmation that I think Holmes and Watson are "just friends" and don't love each other "like slash". [/sarcasm] I suppose I'm asking for it with my chronic ambiguity, but the "either just friends or slash" idea completely oversimplifies love in general and H&W in particular.
(I'm sure this commenter didn't mean anything insulting, they were just trying to figure out what I meant by the afforementioned chronic H/W ambiguity. But I can't help it: I take it personally when people tell me, or insinuate, that they hate slash or find it gross. To my mind, slash = gay relationships, and therefore my life = slash. So when I read "I hate slash," I hear "I hate your life." I realize many people don't mean it this way, but that's how I feel. Illogical or not, there it is.)
ANYWAY. I'm posting about Lord of the Rings today! Be forewarned, I tend to go on XD
I finished this re-read of Fellowship of the Ring Thursday night! It was interesting to try to figure out what everyone's personality was like at this stage of the story, and how their book-personalities are different from the films. I think that in my head I kind of superimpose on them my own idea of their personalities, a mish-mash of the books and the movies and my own personal fanon. Which sometimes may be off the mark XD
And because this is what I do for fun, here are my impressions of the book!Fellowship.
I had forgotten that Frodo is supposed to be pretty far into maturity by the time the quest starts. I think he's around 50 (Bilbo's age when he goes off on his adventure, too) since he was 33, hobbit coming-of-age, when Bilbo left the Shire, and the quest starts around 20 years after that. If I remember right, 50 is when hobbits are supposed to start settling down and getting respectable. And Frodo is very mature - more so than I remembered. He's afraid (as well he should be), but he's not wibbly or pathetic or helpless. And while he wishes none of this ever happened, he doesn't whine, and he takes his responsibility very seriously.
Aw, Sam. He was my favorite when I was little, and I still love him so much. I feel like he's the reader's closest counterpart. He's not afraid to say what he thinks of the miserable conditions they have to travel under, and he's far more insightful about what's really going on - on a personal level, as opposed to a kingdoms-in-the-balance level - than anyone else. He's funny, and down-to-earth, and insightful in the way you are when you've had lots of experience observing the way people function instead of guiding or controlling them. Everybody in the story goes on about how wise people like Gandalf and Aragorn are, but to me, it's really all Sam.
I think poor Merry gets the prize for least developed character at this stage of the story. Indistinguishable Backup Hobbit though he may be, he does make a couple of pretty important observations, and he's very level-headed. He also seems fairly unperturbed by all the awful things they have to go through, but that may be just because we don't get to hear his thoughts very often. More often we hear Pippin's, because Pippin is young and loud and doesn't think very much before he does anything. Pippin tends to say and do things that get everyone into trouble (the most significant being the infamous rock-down-the-well in Moria), and I would think his guilt over that would be something awful, because he really is a good person, in spite of his inability to see the far-reaching consequences of their quest. That's a very understandable thing; it's human nature (er, hobbit nature too?) to be primarily focused on your own survival and comfort and that of your friends, rather than the nebulous "good" of the world at large. Pippin's also the only one aside from Boromir who really thinks they should try to convince Frodo not to turn east to Mordor when they have to make the choice of which direction to go in. I think he's the least suited to deal with the hardship they go through, which gives him more chance to grow later in the story.
I <3 Aragorn so much. I'm right now reading my favorite parts with him, during the sundering of the Fellowship when he's at his most conflicted about his ability to lead. I really like book!Aragorn, who has been waiting for this moment for his entire life, but who finds himself with split allegiances that he hadn't expected. He wants to take his place as king and rally Gondor, but he's also grown so attached to Frodo - alongside his responsibility to help destroy the Ring - that he just can't make a choice until he's forced to by circumstances. I don't think that the addition of his reticence to take his place as king in the movies makes him more realistic than he is in the book, because I don't find book!Aragorn to be unrealistic. He's very proud of his heritage and would never run from it, but he's unconfident about his ability to make the right decisions (with reason - his procrastination probably caused some of their troubles). The fact that he's not all-knowing makes him much more likable, and he has a lot of internal struggles that we only get little hints about. Incidentally, out of all the film cast, Viggo is the only one who looks and acts pretty much exactly like I think Aragorn should. Yay :3
Sorry, Boromir, I still don't like you. I tried to read Fellowship this time with as unbiased a mind as possible toward Boromir (I hated him and was scared of him when I was little) and I still ended the book thinking him kind of a jerk. In his favor, he's clearly very brave and has a lot of fortitude, and he would never give up on his companions (er, when he's in his right mind). But at the same time, he's arrogant and single-minded and disrespectful toward, well, mostly everyone. The glory of Gondor is foremost in his mind, and kind of like Pippin, he doesn't seem to "get" the far-reaching importance of destroying the Ring. He doesn't take the hobbits seriously, he constantly questions Gandalf's wisdom (and not in the most polite ways, either), he initially has nothing but skepticism for Aragorn, and he's deeply suspicious of Galadriel. He's also kind of a whiner, geez. His litany throughout the book is pretty much "If we had done this MY way we wouldn't be in so much trouble!" without believing anyone that his way would dump them conveniently in Saruman's lap. I mean, he's not a bad person - he feels awful about trying to hurt Frodo to get the Ring, and after all he does die valiantly trying to protect Merry and Pippin - but he rubs me the wrong way. He's so much more of a sympathetic woobie in the film, and as such I'm more inclined to feel bad for movie!Boromir while at the same time kind of groaning at what a tragic hero they make him out to be.
Elves, man. I don't even know. I had a stint in high school where Legolas was my favorite character, most likely because he's an elf and I thought elves were cool. And elves are cool, they're just also, I dunno... sort of alien. I can't tell if the way Legolas acts is because he's an elf or because of his own personality, but I get the feeling it's the former. It's like Tolkien elves aren't really living with both feet in the same world. Legolas is the only one who stays cheerful and unaffected for the early part of the journey, at least until they get to Moria. And then the Balrog scares the everloving crap out of him - more than anybody else, I think, because he knows what it is. It's not just a scary monster, it's a freaking Balrog of Morgoth. Because it's something from the past, when the world belonged to the elves, he reacts strongly to it. While on the one hand it seems like Legolas experiences grief more sharply than the others, being an elf in a world where elves and sadness are inextricable, he also seems like he's very much less sensitive of his companions' feelings. Some of the things he says makes me think he has no idea (or doesn't care) how they might impact the others.
OMG GIMLI <3 He's utterly adorable in how much he loves Lothlorien and Galadriel, and his enthusiasm for Moria, and his defense of his people. He really acts a lot younger than I remember, which is endearing. Of all the characters, I think he's the most passionate. He befriends the hobbits more than either Legolas or Boromir, too, and I think it's because he doesn't underestimate them like Boromir or feel disinterested in them as mortals the way Legolas does. Second to the hobbits, Gimli is the most relatable character for readers, I think.
I love Legolas and Gimli's relationship. I was on the lookout for their bickering, but they don't actually bicker that much. Most of their interaction before Lothlorien amounts to comments about history leading to them both getting defensive about which race is to blame for bad things that happened (and they never accuse each other, just defend their own people). They do argue about whether Gimli should be blindfolded going into Lothlorien, but that's it, and once they're inside, they're suddenly BFFs. I suppose that was due to Gimli speaking so respectfully to Galadriel? But Legolas was the one to drag him away from Balin's tomb in Moria so he didn't get slaughtered, so it seems to have been a gradual thing. Their animosity was certainly played up in the movie XD More narrative excitement that way, at least. Book!Legolas doesn't really go out of his way to say things solely intended to make someone feel better, except to Gimli, and that says a lot about their friendship.
Speaking of relationships, the group dynamic within the Fellowship is pretty interesting. There are occasional bits of evidence that they're all extremely attached and loyal to one another, but their usual interaction doesn't particularly show that. I found myself wondering how many of them knew each other before the start of the quest. I mean, obviously the hobbits knew each other for their whole lives, and Frodo and Sam know Gandalf (Merry and Pippin to a lesser extent), and the four of them were with Aragorn for a month or so before they get to Rivendell. Aragorn and Gandalf travelled together many times before the start of the quest and were apparently pretty close. Legolas must have known Gandalf, since he calls him "Mithrandir" later on. I think it's pretty likely he knew Aragorn, too, since he introduces him as "Elf-friend," and Aragorn and Gandalf worked with the elves of Mirkwood to capture and hold Gollum. There's no absolute textual evidence, though. That's one of my favorite things about the films, actually, that Legolas and Aragorn are portrayed as old friends. Gimli most likely knew Gandalf, being Gloin's son, but probably didn't know anybody else. And it doesn't seem like Boromir knew anybody at all, even Gandalf (and considering Minas Tirith's recent attitude toward Gandalf, I don't wonder at it).
Boromir doesn't ever seem to bond with anybody (the narration just speeds him toward corruption and death). He spends much of his time grumping instead of getting along with the others, although he's obviously concerned about the hobbits. I preferred the way the movies had him goofing around with Merry and Pippin, and how he and Aragorn ended up sort of friends (being distant kindred and all). The hobbits pretty much stick together, although Gimli talks to them and is friendly with them. Legolas doesn't really warm up to anyone before Gimli, but he does tell everyone stories and sings for them, and he has some measure of connection with Aragorn. Gandalf, for his part, is obviously very fond of all of the hobbits, considers Aragorn a friend and equal, and is pretty friendly with everyone else. Well, except Boromir. Aragorn seems too preoccupied first with his impending kinghood and then with his sudden leadership to have time to make good friends with anyone in the first book, but he has a good relationship with Sam and Frodo, and he'll get a chance with some of the others later on. He's got a lot on his shoulders :\
Why don't I have more LotR icons? Seriously?
(I'm sure this commenter didn't mean anything insulting, they were just trying to figure out what I meant by the afforementioned chronic H/W ambiguity. But I can't help it: I take it personally when people tell me, or insinuate, that they hate slash or find it gross. To my mind, slash = gay relationships, and therefore my life = slash. So when I read "I hate slash," I hear "I hate your life." I realize many people don't mean it this way, but that's how I feel. Illogical or not, there it is.)
ANYWAY. I'm posting about Lord of the Rings today! Be forewarned, I tend to go on XD
I finished this re-read of Fellowship of the Ring Thursday night! It was interesting to try to figure out what everyone's personality was like at this stage of the story, and how their book-personalities are different from the films. I think that in my head I kind of superimpose on them my own idea of their personalities, a mish-mash of the books and the movies and my own personal fanon. Which sometimes may be off the mark XD
And because this is what I do for fun, here are my impressions of the book!Fellowship.
I had forgotten that Frodo is supposed to be pretty far into maturity by the time the quest starts. I think he's around 50 (Bilbo's age when he goes off on his adventure, too) since he was 33, hobbit coming-of-age, when Bilbo left the Shire, and the quest starts around 20 years after that. If I remember right, 50 is when hobbits are supposed to start settling down and getting respectable. And Frodo is very mature - more so than I remembered. He's afraid (as well he should be), but he's not wibbly or pathetic or helpless. And while he wishes none of this ever happened, he doesn't whine, and he takes his responsibility very seriously.
Aw, Sam. He was my favorite when I was little, and I still love him so much. I feel like he's the reader's closest counterpart. He's not afraid to say what he thinks of the miserable conditions they have to travel under, and he's far more insightful about what's really going on - on a personal level, as opposed to a kingdoms-in-the-balance level - than anyone else. He's funny, and down-to-earth, and insightful in the way you are when you've had lots of experience observing the way people function instead of guiding or controlling them. Everybody in the story goes on about how wise people like Gandalf and Aragorn are, but to me, it's really all Sam.
I think poor Merry gets the prize for least developed character at this stage of the story. Indistinguishable Backup Hobbit though he may be, he does make a couple of pretty important observations, and he's very level-headed. He also seems fairly unperturbed by all the awful things they have to go through, but that may be just because we don't get to hear his thoughts very often. More often we hear Pippin's, because Pippin is young and loud and doesn't think very much before he does anything. Pippin tends to say and do things that get everyone into trouble (the most significant being the infamous rock-down-the-well in Moria), and I would think his guilt over that would be something awful, because he really is a good person, in spite of his inability to see the far-reaching consequences of their quest. That's a very understandable thing; it's human nature (er, hobbit nature too?) to be primarily focused on your own survival and comfort and that of your friends, rather than the nebulous "good" of the world at large. Pippin's also the only one aside from Boromir who really thinks they should try to convince Frodo not to turn east to Mordor when they have to make the choice of which direction to go in. I think he's the least suited to deal with the hardship they go through, which gives him more chance to grow later in the story.
I <3 Aragorn so much. I'm right now reading my favorite parts with him, during the sundering of the Fellowship when he's at his most conflicted about his ability to lead. I really like book!Aragorn, who has been waiting for this moment for his entire life, but who finds himself with split allegiances that he hadn't expected. He wants to take his place as king and rally Gondor, but he's also grown so attached to Frodo - alongside his responsibility to help destroy the Ring - that he just can't make a choice until he's forced to by circumstances. I don't think that the addition of his reticence to take his place as king in the movies makes him more realistic than he is in the book, because I don't find book!Aragorn to be unrealistic. He's very proud of his heritage and would never run from it, but he's unconfident about his ability to make the right decisions (with reason - his procrastination probably caused some of their troubles). The fact that he's not all-knowing makes him much more likable, and he has a lot of internal struggles that we only get little hints about. Incidentally, out of all the film cast, Viggo is the only one who looks and acts pretty much exactly like I think Aragorn should. Yay :3
Sorry, Boromir, I still don't like you. I tried to read Fellowship this time with as unbiased a mind as possible toward Boromir (I hated him and was scared of him when I was little) and I still ended the book thinking him kind of a jerk. In his favor, he's clearly very brave and has a lot of fortitude, and he would never give up on his companions (er, when he's in his right mind). But at the same time, he's arrogant and single-minded and disrespectful toward, well, mostly everyone. The glory of Gondor is foremost in his mind, and kind of like Pippin, he doesn't seem to "get" the far-reaching importance of destroying the Ring. He doesn't take the hobbits seriously, he constantly questions Gandalf's wisdom (and not in the most polite ways, either), he initially has nothing but skepticism for Aragorn, and he's deeply suspicious of Galadriel. He's also kind of a whiner, geez. His litany throughout the book is pretty much "If we had done this MY way we wouldn't be in so much trouble!" without believing anyone that his way would dump them conveniently in Saruman's lap. I mean, he's not a bad person - he feels awful about trying to hurt Frodo to get the Ring, and after all he does die valiantly trying to protect Merry and Pippin - but he rubs me the wrong way. He's so much more of a sympathetic woobie in the film, and as such I'm more inclined to feel bad for movie!Boromir while at the same time kind of groaning at what a tragic hero they make him out to be.
Elves, man. I don't even know. I had a stint in high school where Legolas was my favorite character, most likely because he's an elf and I thought elves were cool. And elves are cool, they're just also, I dunno... sort of alien. I can't tell if the way Legolas acts is because he's an elf or because of his own personality, but I get the feeling it's the former. It's like Tolkien elves aren't really living with both feet in the same world. Legolas is the only one who stays cheerful and unaffected for the early part of the journey, at least until they get to Moria. And then the Balrog scares the everloving crap out of him - more than anybody else, I think, because he knows what it is. It's not just a scary monster, it's a freaking Balrog of Morgoth. Because it's something from the past, when the world belonged to the elves, he reacts strongly to it. While on the one hand it seems like Legolas experiences grief more sharply than the others, being an elf in a world where elves and sadness are inextricable, he also seems like he's very much less sensitive of his companions' feelings. Some of the things he says makes me think he has no idea (or doesn't care) how they might impact the others.
OMG GIMLI <3 He's utterly adorable in how much he loves Lothlorien and Galadriel, and his enthusiasm for Moria, and his defense of his people. He really acts a lot younger than I remember, which is endearing. Of all the characters, I think he's the most passionate. He befriends the hobbits more than either Legolas or Boromir, too, and I think it's because he doesn't underestimate them like Boromir or feel disinterested in them as mortals the way Legolas does. Second to the hobbits, Gimli is the most relatable character for readers, I think.
I love Legolas and Gimli's relationship. I was on the lookout for their bickering, but they don't actually bicker that much. Most of their interaction before Lothlorien amounts to comments about history leading to them both getting defensive about which race is to blame for bad things that happened (and they never accuse each other, just defend their own people). They do argue about whether Gimli should be blindfolded going into Lothlorien, but that's it, and once they're inside, they're suddenly BFFs. I suppose that was due to Gimli speaking so respectfully to Galadriel? But Legolas was the one to drag him away from Balin's tomb in Moria so he didn't get slaughtered, so it seems to have been a gradual thing. Their animosity was certainly played up in the movie XD More narrative excitement that way, at least. Book!Legolas doesn't really go out of his way to say things solely intended to make someone feel better, except to Gimli, and that says a lot about their friendship.
Speaking of relationships, the group dynamic within the Fellowship is pretty interesting. There are occasional bits of evidence that they're all extremely attached and loyal to one another, but their usual interaction doesn't particularly show that. I found myself wondering how many of them knew each other before the start of the quest. I mean, obviously the hobbits knew each other for their whole lives, and Frodo and Sam know Gandalf (Merry and Pippin to a lesser extent), and the four of them were with Aragorn for a month or so before they get to Rivendell. Aragorn and Gandalf travelled together many times before the start of the quest and were apparently pretty close. Legolas must have known Gandalf, since he calls him "Mithrandir" later on. I think it's pretty likely he knew Aragorn, too, since he introduces him as "Elf-friend," and Aragorn and Gandalf worked with the elves of Mirkwood to capture and hold Gollum. There's no absolute textual evidence, though. That's one of my favorite things about the films, actually, that Legolas and Aragorn are portrayed as old friends. Gimli most likely knew Gandalf, being Gloin's son, but probably didn't know anybody else. And it doesn't seem like Boromir knew anybody at all, even Gandalf (and considering Minas Tirith's recent attitude toward Gandalf, I don't wonder at it).
Boromir doesn't ever seem to bond with anybody (the narration just speeds him toward corruption and death). He spends much of his time grumping instead of getting along with the others, although he's obviously concerned about the hobbits. I preferred the way the movies had him goofing around with Merry and Pippin, and how he and Aragorn ended up sort of friends (being distant kindred and all). The hobbits pretty much stick together, although Gimli talks to them and is friendly with them. Legolas doesn't really warm up to anyone before Gimli, but he does tell everyone stories and sings for them, and he has some measure of connection with Aragorn. Gandalf, for his part, is obviously very fond of all of the hobbits, considers Aragorn a friend and equal, and is pretty friendly with everyone else. Well, except Boromir. Aragorn seems too preoccupied first with his impending kinghood and then with his sudden leadership to have time to make good friends with anyone in the first book, but he has a good relationship with Sam and Frodo, and he'll get a chance with some of the others later on. He's got a lot on his shoulders :\
Why don't I have more LotR icons? Seriously?
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no subject
Date: 2010-08-28 10:06 pm (UTC)And let me tell you, as an educated person from the West Midlands, I'm pretty embarrassed about not having read the books! XD
As for your first bit of the post, you do kinda have a right to be annoyed about it. I never get why people who don't like slash feel the need to tell those who do all about it. Surely they could guess that being all "ew, slash" might be considered pretty offensive, even if they don't have an issue with people being gay. I mean, there's plenty of stuff about sexuality that I accept but don't necessarily want to read about, etc, but I just keep my mouth shut and let those people who do, enjoy it. Minding my own business really isn't that difficult.
Also, your art is awesome, and your ambiguity is one of my favourite things ever about all your artistic endeavours (art and fic). It's much harder to leave things open for interpretation rather than spelling it out for the audience. If they were choosing to interpret it as 'non-slashy' I don't understand what they needed your validation for. They should have just said "ooh, lovely art" and gone away happy.
TL;DR Yeah, I agree, that thing with the art must have been really annoying.
no subject
Date: 2010-08-29 03:15 pm (UTC)LotR is seriously not everybody's cup of tea. I really like that old, laborious style of writing, and even so I have serious difficulties getting through Return of the King, and Two Towers to a lesser extent. Also, I noticed this time that the bulk of the text is descriptions of the landscape and how they travel through it. That's not something everybody would be interested in reading. I think, without sarcasm, that watching the movies is an acceptable substitute if you want to participate in LotR fandom things. They're their own canon in itself XD
no subject
Date: 2010-08-30 07:52 am (UTC)There's also a world of difference between slash not being your thing, and actively hating it.
But, be of good cheer. We all love you, and your subtle slash :D
And yeah, I know what you mean about LoTR and all the landscape descriptions, yikes! But then I suppose that's why people love it, because the world becomes so clear in their heads. I read The Hobbit in a day, so I am slightly disappointed with my inability to make it past the first 200 pages of Fellowship of the Ring.
no subject
Date: 2010-09-04 01:44 am (UTC)There's also a world of difference between slash not being your thing, and actively hating it.
Yeah, seriously O_o For some reason I found that people felt like it was very important to inform me that they don't like slash omg!
For some reason, in western societies, we've decided that everyone's opinion is somehow valid and untouchable, no matter how ill informed or offensive it is.
Dude, you are wise. I never thought of this, but it's so true. It's totally possible to respect someone's opinion but still point out when it's hurtful.
no subject
Date: 2010-08-28 10:39 pm (UTC)You're not asking for it - subtlety is your style, both in art and writing. I totally agree with you in your statement that love is complex and that romantic love does not always have to have a sexual element. *defensive*
Your commentary makes me want to read LotR again - or at least FoR.
no subject
Date: 2010-08-29 03:17 pm (UTC)You should so totally read FotR again! Then we can squee together! XD
*uses LotR icon*
Date: 2010-08-29 03:36 am (UTC)Aaaaand that's my tirade for the day. :I
As for the bulk of your post (heh, sorry), I nod my head, and observe how delightful it is when characters have so many names, as Gandalf and Aragorn have. It is because they are Big Important People, but also because they travel between so many worlds, and every world has its own name for them; so you can tell how someone knows them by what name they use. Does that make sense?; it is late.
Re: *uses LotR icon*
Date: 2010-08-29 03:24 pm (UTC)I TOTALLY agree about the names, and it definitely makes sense :3 I love it when characters call each other by names in their own language, or from their own culture, because it brings a different dynamic and shows a different kind of affection (or otherwise, I guess XD) That's why I like Japanese, too, because you can tell how someone feels about someone else by how they address them.